Andrew Leech video 280726
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Megan Walker: Hello,
and a very big warm welcome to the Healthcare Thought Leaders show. I'm Megan Walker, and today our very special guest is Dr. Andrew Leech, who is an award-winning general practitioner, author, speaker, healthcare advocate, and founder of the Garden Family Medical Center in Perth. Andrew is also the recipient of the 2023 RACGP West Australian GP of the Year, and has become one of Australia's most respected voices in child and adolescent health, family medicine, and healthcare reform.
What I really admired about Andrew when I was stalking him on LinkedIn is that while he continues to care for patients every day, he's also recognized that his impact doesn't have to end at the consulting room door. Through writing and speaking and media advocacy in creating an innovative model of general practice, Andrew's helping shape conversations about the future of healthcare and improving the lives of [00:01:00] families right across Australia, which is what all of you are interested in and why you're here.
So today, we're gonna dive into Andrew's journey in a little bit more detail, and what he's learned about becoming that trusted public voice, and why healthcare professionals like you have an incredible opportunity to create change by sharing your expertise safely and more broadly with the people who it can impact most.
So Andrew, after that very long intro, how are you? And thank you so much for being here.
Andrew Leech: That was a very, very kind welcome. Thank you very much. Um, and, uh, yeah, great to be here, and you're absolutely right. Like, we have opportunities to really share what we see and where the pain points are in the system and how to improve things.
We are, you know, at that forefront. So really hopeful that we can cover some of those things.
Megan Walker: Amazing. Wonderful. So calling you a GP advocate, I don't know if that's a title that you reference for yourself, but what inspired you to [00:02:00] lean more into this work? You've got your great practice- Yeah. ... and becoming this strong voice for children, adolescents, and family.
Where's your inspiration come from?
Andrew Leech: directly from the people that we see, the families. Um, you know, they, they... I, over... I've been now a GP for 15 years. I was just trying to work it out. It's, um, incredible to, to think how quickly that's gone. Um, and over that time, I've sort of really evolved into working closely with, um, parents, children, adolescents, and that sort of early lifespan, the early developmental years where there's often challenges, um, and learnt so much around what families might go through during those years and what they might experience.
And s- and it's, uh, not only taught me so much about, um, you know, day-to-day, uh, life struggles and, you know, mental health difficulties, it's, it's t- it's more than any textbook would have ever taught me. Um, but also how the world is [00:03:00] changing and how we are having different types of stress in our life. So I, I learn exactly from the people I see, and that's what inspires me, as well as my own family, of course.
Um, and I can't, uh, leave this show without mentioning they're, they're part of my inspiration.
Megan Walker: That's amazing. Yeah. So you thought you did enough study when you went through, uh, medicine school, but now you're, you're learning on the job every day, getting these rich insights and leaning in. Love that.
Andrew Leech: Yeah.
Uh, cramming, uh, four years of medicine, uh, at medical school, I thought, "Well, I hope I've got enough to get out there into the real world." But the learning comes day to day. That's really where it starts once you start working and seeing people. It is amazing how much they teach you.
Megan Walker: Yeah. Yeah. I noticed that you have challenged the traditional 15-minute consult model.
Yeah. And so what principles guided, firstly, the creation and setup of your clinic, like going out to, you know, have your own show? Mm. And what have you learned about designing healthcare [00:04:00] around patients as opposed- Yeah ... to systems?
Andrew Leech: Yeah. So, um, s- we spend a few years training as registrars i-in general practice, and that gives us an opportunity to go across different clinics and see what, uh, different places are like and different demographics.
But during that time, I noticed there was this common trend across clinics that they're very much traditional waiting areas with, uh, TV, um, tends to be a little bit of old, uh, furniture around and- ... stained carpet and-
Megan Walker: Old magazines.
Andrew Leech: And then we... Old magazines, and then we had COVID, and every clinic put up the glass.
There was this sort of like the glass across reception and so, you know, it's really clinical. And as a patient, you know, I, um, I feel that would be not as inviting as it possibly could be. Yeah. And there are ways that we could keep it clinical and clean and safe, but make it more, um, inviting and welcoming [00:05:00] and holistic and nurturing.
And given mental health is now really the number one reason that patients come to a GP clinic- Mm ... uh, I think it's important that they are made to feel comfortable in a environment where they're gonna be coming to, you know, um, to visit often or to review with their GP. So the clinic itself, I thought, well, how do we really throw this upside down?
And lots and lots of talking to different people and getting help and advice. It wasn't just me, but really at the end of it, you know, the, the center of our clinic is a garden. So it's a tropical walk, like outdoor garden inside the out... It's the outside in the clinic. So it's in the middle of the clinic.
And that is the centerpiece, and it's really growing with us, which is why it's called the Garden. Um, and patients walk through that. So they walk in, have their, uh, their, uh, GP call them, and they can walk through this outdoor area and straight into their consult [00:06:00] room. And it's, it's been, um... And then all the rooms sort of surround it, so there's that natural light, which I felt was really important.
But it has been, um, yeah, quite a journey to get to that. And, um, uh, like it's, it's, uh, amazing that it's growing because I thought there's no sun coming in from this- ... uh, courtyard area, but it's worked out, and it's worked really well. Um, and then from there, just creating a clinic that allows people to spend time, uh, really working through challenges they've had.
It's, uh, as I... Again, learning as a GP, uh, we were made to have fifteen-minute appointments. Um, and most registrars do get a bit burnt out by this, where you're sort of seeing four patients an hour, and you have a sort of a fairly strict schedule, eight hours a day. That is not conducive, and I felt really, um- I wasn't doing a service for patients.
I wasn't really providing them what they [00:07:00] needed. It was- Yeah ... really, really frustrating to me. And, you know, you'll just get through one thing really, and then you have to get them back. Our patients want to feel heard. And ultimately, um, w- if we have nothing else to give, no medicine or no treatment, if they feel validated and heard, I think we've really done our job, and that's what I've appreciated now this much further along.
That time is probably the key medicine or the key aspect of that ti- of that, uh, visit. Yeah. Wow. Um, so yeah. So, so we have longer consultations and particularly myself, but a nu- most of our GPs will do a minimum 30 minute. But my first session is one hour, and it's actually amazing how quickly-
Megan Walker: Mm-hmm ...
Andrew Leech: that one hour disappears.
You know, I feel like it should be 90 minutes. What... And that's just for a four-year-old, like, you know. Yeah. There's so much going on, like, in, uh, everyone's life. Um, and it's important to really, you know, step back and just work through everything that's sort [00:08:00] of they need to work through and not feel rushed.
Um- Yes ... so yeah, it sort of all kind of built from there. And then we developed sort of in the h- system of our clinic, tried to make everything, uh, seamless for patients. So if they needed support with an area, we make sure that they don't have to necessarily be referred out. We can have a, a, some- a, a GP with that special interest, or we've got psychology, or we've got, you know, allied health.
Um, and then, you know, we've got sort of these special interest areas that we can really tackle in the one place, and that's been amazing, you know, as a, as another way of evolving in general practice. Um, there was a second part to your question, or is that the whole question?
Megan Walker: Um, so starting your practice, we covered that, which sounds incredible, and what you've learned about designing healthcare around patients rather than systems.
I'm curious. Mm. I mean, the ... No wonder you won GP of the Year. That, that is fa- fabulous what you've done. But can you tell us what some [00:09:00] of the positive outcomes have been for both staff and- Yeah ... your patients in having this beautiful, calming environment and also being- Yeah ... listened to? Tell us what's
What... How's that translating?
Andrew Leech: I think the, the other aspect of, you know, going through clinics is you recognize the importance of staff culture-
Megan Walker: Yes ...
Andrew Leech: and team culture. And it's so important that if you have a really, you know, happy workplace, uh, the patients feel it. And so, you know, it comes from the front of, uh, where the patients are greeted all the way through to, uh, the nurses and the GPs.
And so the design was important, but the actual structure was important where we say, "Okay, we're all one team. We're all doing our bit. There's no hierarchy here." You know, we don't have doctors sitting, uh, in this sort of, this sort of elevated realm. It's we're all even. And I think that's worked, and I think we all [00:10:00] collaborate.
We try to... We do lots of things where we catch up, and we have, you know, um, uh, whole team educational things. But the, the, the, the way that we connect is really, um, special. Mm. And then empowering each of the... So we, we don't call them receptionists. We call them healthcare assistants because- Right ... reception is just, uh, to me, it's, it's a, it's, it's not enough for what they do.
Yes. Yes. Um, uh, so they, each healthcare assistant has their own skills, and we tr- try to empower them to work towards goals in those skills, whether it's a leadership role or, you know, a- an administrative role or a educational type role. So they all have their own roles underneath being at the front of house as well.
Um, but that's, that's just one little pocket of the, of what the way that the clinic, uh, might, uh, help build culture. But the actual feel of the, you know, walking into a, a bright, uh, um, airy kind of, um, [00:11:00] atmosphere, I, I hope also helps. And providing them, you know, with that collaborative team approach, um, i- is what...
And then so the benefit is, I guess, retention. You know, we, we are very fortunate that overall, um- Uh, the, the team has stuck together in four or five years that we've been open. Um, you know, we really don't have to hire too often, which is great. Yeah, great. Um, so that's a big process on its own. Um, yeah, so if you keep your team, then you, you also build from there.
And, um, I probably haven't fully ... There was a benefit to patients-
Megan Walker: Yes, yes ...
Andrew Leech: the other part of the question. So just as an example, I guess, one of the models we trialed very early was I recognized that ADHD access for particularly children and adolescents was i- increasingly difficult, um, and particularly in the public system here in WA, and I don't know what it's like, uh, [00:12:00] in Queensland, but the th- there was a three to four year, now probably five year wait to get a pediatrician just to sort of work on, um, if this child has a diagnosis of ADHD or even autism, and to then provide support.
So that delay was all of primary school almost, you know? Wow.
Megan Walker: Yes.
Andrew Leech: Um, but it's the ri- Lost that
Megan Walker: neuroplasticity opportunity.
Andrew Leech: Mm. You know, there's so much that happens in that time that- Yes ... you know, the ripple effect on their mental health and- Being in general practice, that's what we were witnessing, you know, some of the, the, the mental health effects, the family effects, the, the struggle for parents to work, the, the difficulties on the school, and, and so there's so many aspects beyond just a label.
Um, and, you know, uh, end up seeing them more and more and more just to try and hold things together. Um, so the system is fairly broken, and that then led to private systems filling up, you know, the private pediatricians not only filling up and having [00:13:00] their own wait list but also charging more and more and more because of the demand, so it's becoming unaffordable almost.
Mm. So we developed a pilot system. So I went to, uh, a pediatrician who's written the ADHD Go-To Guide, which is a really good book. Um, she works here. She's a key researcher, Professor Desiree Silva. Uh, and she's, uh, a very, uh, approachable, so we discussed a model where we could almost streamline that care and do a lot of the work, the background work in GP, which we can.
We, we sort of do a lot of these, uh, assessments where we take a history, examine, do some of the screening tools, spend some time doing all those things, blood tests, get the nurse involved. We do all that hard work, and then we present that in like a case conference to the pediatrician, and we might then be able to tackle a lot more in a- Mm
shorter space of time, and then she reviews them and, and makes a call. And then together we work on a treatment plan. [00:14:00]
Megan Walker: Oh.
Andrew Leech: And this, this model was so good that we're, I think we're up to maybe 60, 70, uh, kids that we have been able to work on together. Um, but the real value has been, uh, sort of wrapping ourselves around the, the family and saying, "Okay, we're going to be meeting, talking about you with myself, pediatrician, um, potentially a nurse in a case conference, and really trying to establish goals and continue to progress those goals and make sure you're on track."
And this not only saved me time- Mm ... uh, it also saved her time. She saw a lot more than what, you know, we could have, um- Seeming, uh, otherwise Yes And it also reduced the stress on both of us and the families. Yes. Um, out of that model we presented to the government and showed a, a working concept of how this could potentially change the way that we do this care in the state.
And then just one month ago, the law [00:15:00] changed to allow general practice to finally actually do this work alongside, you know- Mm ... or working with a supervising pediatrician. So now we're doing that, um, and able to just- Incredible ... do without necessarily having to have those meetings. I can now diagnose and treat independently, but also know that I've got the backup support if I need it.
So we're saving them time. We really need them to be available for those complex- Yes ... needs care patients, but we can't get anyone in at the moment. So now we're hopefully, hopefully opening that up. But that was a model that really worked well for patients and continues to work
Megan Walker: Congratulations. That's a, it's a huge, like, impact, just that- Mm
one piece that you've done. And I pardon me, I wanna talk to you all day, but you're a busy man. No, sorry. So- No, no. Not at all. No, no Just, just
Andrew Leech: take your time. Take your time. Um,
Megan Walker: so you've written a book, and I want you to tell us the name of the book obviously so people can go and check it out. But also, where did that thought process come from?
So is, was that [00:16:00] a, uh, an invitation to write or was that a recognition that, hey, I wanna get this out there? Tell us about the book journey for you.
Andrew Leech: Yeah. Well, um, I consider this, so this is actually the second book now, but I consider that, uh, sort of it's a bit like journaling. So I really enjoy, um, sort of writing things down after a day that I might have experienced that were impactful or interesting.
And so started to do that for the first book around anxiety because we're seeing more and more anxiety in children.
Megan Walker: Yeah.
Andrew Leech: And sharing the s- I felt like, you know, I was sharing the same advice every single time, you know. Try this, try this, try this. And then I thought, well, I, I just need to write this down and, and started to do fact sheets and then thought, well, we can start to actually just put this together into something that then we could suggest to parents or families, you know.
This is what I would normally tell you. Go and read this. Um, and so that was the first [00:17:00] book was on child anxiety. But the second one then I thought, well, it would go a little bit deeper because I am seeing some really complicated, uh, teenage related issues and, um, things that they're faced with that perhaps GPs or parents or anyone really, educators, are not necessarily aware of some of those inner, more deeper issues and around identity, around, um, risk-taking and, you know, social media and all those things that we...
I was not taught at med school. Um, and so the stories were incredible. And te-teenagers, you know, they really build a trust with GPs. You know, as you get to know them, you see them on their own, and they start to share some of those things that they haven't told anyone. And a-as we went through, we had some success stories, and I thought, well, would you be able to, you know, write these things down and we'll put them in this book?
And so, yeah, we started to build up a collection of different stories, and then I thought, well, we need to involve the [00:18:00] parents, so we started to hear their perspectives and write them in as well. And so the, the book, Inside the Teenage Mind, um, which, uh, came out late last year, is really a collection of, of the journey through some of these issues and topics that we will see, and maybe that others won't necessarily have that inner, um, information on, but now we can really hear from the people who are living through it.
Um, that's really what it is. So it's, yeah, it's been nice to put it together And yeah, I guess in, in answer to your question, basically I'd just like to, um, I'd just like to sort of have a voice for these people and share what they're going through because it's, you know, it's quite, uh, powerful.
Megan Walker: Yeah.
Andrew Leech: And if they're happy and comfortable with me doing that, which most of the patients are, they really wanna share this.
It's, it's really, um, uh, good to be able to, you [00:19:00] know, have that wider, um, audience than just your consult room. Yeah.
Megan Walker: Amazing. Amazing.
Andrew Leech: Yeah. Have
Megan Walker: you got a third one in the works? I'm wondering if you're gonna write Inside the Neurodivergent Teenage Mind.
Andrew Leech: Yeah. Well, as I was putting that in the book, the neurodivergent stuff, I realized, okay, this is not gonna fit into one chapter.
Yeah. Um, so much. Yeah. And, and look, just as a little aside, uh, I've written some articles around, you know, the missed opportunities for diagnosis and support for, particularly for girls. Yeah. Because this DSM criteria- Mm ... really sucks. Uh, it's based on boys, and so many are dismissed. So many girls are dismissed- Yeah
in this assessment process that- Uh, I get frustrated by it because we see that these, you know, it's just a tick box exercise, but really the challenge is, you know, they, they are so obviously, um, struggling with, you know, potential autism or [00:20:00] ADHD that, you know, but no one's sort of grabbing onto that and helping them.
Megan Walker: Yes.
Andrew Leech: Um, so yeah, that's a whole topic. Mm. And then I'm also recognizing the impact of dads. Um, and dads, 'cause we don't see them much, and I've written a few things on this. Um, we s- with the... And understandably, dads might be at work, the moms come in with their child, and I feel like it's a bit of a missing piece in the, in the story.
So, you know, I would really love to share some ideas around how we support dads.
Megan Walker: Yeah, love that. Oh my goodness. Mm. You're just on fire. What great work that you're doing. Oh, I don't know. It's amazing. Also
Andrew Leech: prob- probably burning myself out, but
Megan Walker: yeah, it's okay. I was gonna say- Yeah ... are you looking after yourself?
Um, and-
Andrew Leech: Yeah, I
Megan Walker: try to. Yeah. And if you could change one thing about Australia's current healthcare system, gosh, could you e- Mm ... think of just one? Um- Mm ... what do you think? I love what you've done there with the, um, you know, the, uh, the care consult- Mm ... sessions. Is there anything else like that on your radar that you think could really [00:21:00] make a difference for healthcare-
Andrew Leech: Oh, geez
in Australia? There's so many. I mean- ... just from a Perth perspective, the mental health support for families, especially, uh, children and adolescents, again. Uh, it's, the mental health model is very reactive- Mm ... and not preventative or proactive. It's like, okay, once they reach a critical point, then they go to emergency.
Um, but in between, uh, what we do, you know, is basically just try to hold them and, and support them and get the right kind of help, like psychologists. But there's so many in between that don't sort of quite fit that model, and they do need more sort of higher level care than there's not really any support for them.
I mean, we have our Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service, and that's okay, but it's very limited and the capacity is not enough for the number of families going through a mental health crisis or difficulties. So we don't want them all ending up in ED. [00:22:00] It's, it's a traumatic experience.
Megan Walker: Mm.
Andrew Leech: And this is, um, across all different conditions.
It's so stressful to go through that process. Uh, but what we are lacking, uh, a lot more of that sort of in-between, uh, support for them and where to send them and how to help them, and so they often end up, you know, repeatedly coming back to GP just to sort of talk it through, which is a privilege, but, uh, we need to do better for them.
Absolutely. So the system, public across the whole country really, mental health is under, underfunded, under-recognized, and under supported. Yeah.
Megan Walker: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Mm. Absolutely. And- Looking ahead, what legacy do you hope to leave from your work? What, what are the impacts that, that... Give us the rocking chair test.
Wow. 99 years old, you're in the rocking chair . What do you hope will-
Andrew Leech: Wow ...
Megan Walker: have been some of the big ones that you've ticked off in your career?
Andrew Leech: Yeah. Well, I guess the, the, opening the [00:23:00] clinic was a very big, um, decision and a massive risk. And, uh, once I was starting to see some of those things that I was mentioning- Mm
you know, I thought I, I don't want to, uh, finish my career without having had a go at developing and designing my own place, and really then being able to make decisions that, you know, help impact and change and innovate, uh, in general practice. So being able to do that, this clinic allows me to try things and to test the, the waters and to, to bring out new services and to be the, the decision-maker, which is, uh, amazing.
Whereas when you work in a clinic, you often are limited in what you can do, and that's empowered me to, to try these things and to sort of, um, make decisions that might either work or not work, but at least I'm the one that's making them.
Megan Walker: Yeah.
Andrew Leech: And also to try and improve, yeah, the lives of those patients that come in and see the gaps that are there and, you know, see how I can fill and support [00:24:00] those gaps.
So that's one thing. And the other thing is, again, talking about time. You know, so I, I, I don't think 15-minute, 10-minute, 5-minute consultations are sustainable long term. And, and the more that that is supported through Medicare funding and the way the government structures this, the, the, the, the less service we're providing patients.
But the, the, the true, um, care comes through slowing things down, giving them time, listening to them, and being available. And the ... A lot of clinics can't survive off that model because- Mm ... Medicare simply just doesn't quite match that with the way they fund it. So we need to really, uh, work on that and hopefully leave, um, patients feeling heard.
Megan Walker: Yeah. Amazing.
Andrew Leech: Mm.
Megan Walker: Where people are watching this, um, video or listening to the podcast, down below are, um, contact details where you can get Andrew's book and find out more about his work and have a look at his website as well. What, um, what advice would [00:25:00] you have for other clinicians, allied health specialists who, like you, maybe, maybe the, the you five years ago, who are wanting to do things better in practice, but also then start stepping out into this, "Hey, I've got things to say to media.
I've got useful things to say- Mm ... at conferences. I wanna put a book out there." What would you say to those folks? Um, lessons you've learned and words of encouragement to wrap us up.
Andrew Leech: Yeah. Absolutely. Like, just start. And, you know, um, I, I think w- we feel quite inspired by some of the work we do, and we feel fulfilled by it and, you know, it's really rewarding, and it's fantastic.
And patients, um, often are quite happy to- You know, be involved in an article or, or to, um, share their experience because they can't get their way through the system, or they're struggling and that, that you can be their voice. And y- and, and, and the other side of it is medical magazines, uh, media, um, th- they are [00:26:00] crying out to hear from us.
They really wanna know what's happening, what challenges are there. That's, that's, you know... And, and getting it into those platforms is what raises awareness and can lead to incredible outcomes, incredible change. And it's sad to think sometimes that, you know, I have to go to the newspaper to get the government- Yeah
to listen about funding something. However, it has worked in the past. It, it is, it gets a- True ... it gets a, it gets a response. And, um, so don't, uh, feel afraid to have a go. Um, and just start small. Um, local magazines or local, um, uh, newsletters or, or things like that, you know, just putting forward some of your, um, thoughts and, uh, experiences in your role as a GP or as a healthcare worker, uh, can go so far, and then you build from there.
And it's amazing how you join the dots in the end. You're like, "Okay, so that publication or article led on to-" "... hearing from this person," like yourself- Yes ... uh, Megan. Yeah. And [00:27:00] then that led on to meeting this person. It's just amazing how you then grow- Yeah ... and, uh, really e- expose some of those things that you're really passionate about.
Megan Walker: Yes. And so- Yeah ... I, I often say to, to clients, I say, "Just say yes to opportunities," 'cause it's great practice- Mm-hmm ... and it's another, a- another outlet for education and information. Um, I did wanna just ask you, did you ever have any, or do you ever have any hesitation about AHPRA? 'Cause I know some folks-
Andrew Leech: Mm
Megan Walker: say to me, "Oh, I better not say anything because I'm so worried about that." Yeah. My encouragement is always, you can do anything, so long as it's ethical and it's not overpromising and you're not purporting this or misleading. What's your thoughts around, yes, that's our body, but I'm gonna do it anyway?
Andrew Leech: Um, yeah, it's a really-
it's a really good question. A- and sometimes the things that I'm putting out there are provocative or thought prov- thought-provoking. So what I would suggest is stick to [00:28:00] evidence-based-
Megan Walker: Yes ...
Andrew Leech: thoughts. And, and, and whatever you do put out there, keep it evidence-based. AHPRA's particularly concerned if we're pushing things that, um, you know, might be controversial, but also- Mm
not evidence-based. And- Mm-hmm ... I think that's a, that's a good baseline to start with.
Megan Walker: Mm.
Andrew Leech: Um, check with your indemnity, you know, if you're worried about something that you might be putting out that's, you know, a little bit on the line or a bit gray. Um, however, you know, in general, uh, I think, uh, we are independent.
We are also entitled to have a voice and, you know, share, you know, what we're experiencing as, as human beings ourselves, but also as, as, uh, advocates for our patients. So- Yeah ... I, I haven't had any issues, uh, across, you know, that, touch wood so far. And, um, hopefully, um, uh, others feel can, you know, that they can do that as well and- Yeah
not have to worry about all the legalities of it. [00:29:00] Yeah.
Megan Walker: It's feel the fear and do the greater good anyway.
Andrew Leech: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Take the plunge.
Megan Walker: Take the plunge. Yeah. Good stuff. Mm. Andrew, thank you so much for taking a, a piece out of your day to share your insights. It's been ... C- just congratulations. That's fine.
One of the things that I hear in folks like yourself is starting from the heart with the mission of the work that will work for the patient. And when- Mm ... when that's the center point, the ripple effect outwards always works.
Andrew Leech: Mm.
Megan Walker: When it starts with, "Oh, I'm gonna be, you know, $30 million richer," it doesn't- Mm
have the same natural impact from what I've seen in my years in- Yeah ... banging around- Yeah ... promoting through missions. Yeah.
Andrew Leech: Gosh, starting a clinic, uh, I wouldn't recommend as a- ... a money-making exercise. Uh, and I agree with you 100%, if I can pay the bills and, you know, be [00:30:00] comfortable, then, you know, the rest will work itself out.
Yeah. We, we go into this with a lot of risk and a lot of, you know, uh, nervousness. But in- ultimately, if you do it for the right reasons, then things will work out for you. Yeah.
Megan Walker: Incredible. Yeah. Thank you so much. Mm. It's been an absolute pleasure- Yeah ... talking with you. You too. And I hope everyone listening go and buy Andrew's books.
Andrew Leech: Oh,
Megan Walker: thank you. And, and apply- Yeah ... to work with you if you're in Perth.
Andrew Leech: Yeah. Thanks Megan. Appreciate.
Megan Walker: Pleasure. We'll talk to you
Andrew Leech: soon. Nice to meet you. You too. See you later. Thank you.
Megan Walker: Bye.
Andrew Leech: Bye. Bye.
