Ep 32 - Video - Edited
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Megan Walker: Hello, I am Megan Walker and welcome to Healthcare Online. Our very special guest is Dr. Lisa Burke, the founder and principal of Endeavor Psychology. Hi Lisa. How are you?
Dr. Lisa Burke: Hello, Megan. So lovely to be with you today.
Megan Walker: Thank you so much for joining me. I'd like to kick off by letting our fabulous audience know a bit about you.
Who you help, who you serve. And then let's, uh, sort of head that conversation into how you've been delivering those services and how you plan on delivering them, so over to you. Absolutely.
Dr. Lisa Burke: So I'm a clinical psychologist. Uh, I'm also a thanatologist, which is a scientific study of.
Dying grief and loss and my particular focus in my career over the last 30 years is, is grief. That's my area for lots of people in my clinic who practice, but in
I.
Branch out in great looking to support professionals who are, they are feeling challenged in terms of their confidence level might be. So I'm moving into the course of Frontline.
Megan Walker: Amazing. And so what kind of courses do you think that you'll be pulling together, Lisa?
Dr. Lisa Burke: So I have started with a mini course in my work.
So a couple of lead magnets have come together, formed into a a mini course. I haven't worked into a signature course or anything like that at this point in time. Still getting to know the course creation space, even though it's been a couple of years. What a journey. Working into the space of what. Do the professionals out there on the front line who are supporting people with grief, what are their pain points?
What do they struggle with the most? And what I've got it down to is a few different C words, not rude words, I promise. A few different C words. They're definitely struggling with confidence. It's almost like even if they have had some training or grounding in grief when they're actually getting into that space, there's a highly emotional person in front of them.
There's some really difficult grief and loss experiences being described. That knowledge that they're holding sense to zoom outta their head, and they're left in a really self-questioning space, which is very uncomfortable for a professional to be saying, oh, am I making this worse? Am I doing it right? I don't really know what I'm doing here.
So definitely confidence is one thing that my courses are building onto. Also the perception of competence too. So that self-questioning around, am I doing it right? I don't actually quite know what I'm doing. So, and then the third C that I work with people on is around congruence. So this idea of, yes, you're a professional in this engagement with someone who is, who is grieving, but you are also someone who is human.
So how can you be both things at once? And that material is actually really striking a chord with people is how can I actually still be a professional and maintain my professional perspectives, but engage with this person, human to human in their pain state?
Megan Walker: So this is a really big area for health professionals, and I'm just wondering is the gap, because there's not a lot of original training in this space, or it's not talked about, tell us what, why we're sort of faced with this gap around grief.
Not knowing what to say, not knowing what to do, and being so worried about it.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Yeah, this is exactly what's happening out there. Uh, myself, I have five university degrees, three of them in psychology, and yet I didn't study grief. At all. And yet, here I'm in my career and this is my, my area. So it's, it's just this huge gap.
I can speak from my own experience as, as a trainee out there in the world. The the key statistics that we hold onto here at Grief Action is that, uh, you know, 90% of professionals will say grief is important. I see it in my work. I, it needs to be an area of competence and comfort and con and confidence for me.
But actually only 13% of professionals will say they feel confident. To manage this. So we've got this 90% saying I, I know that grief is important. Only 13% of healthcare and allied health professionals say they feel confident to do this work, that that gap is enormous. So it is a gap in training. It is a gap in confidence as well.
We just haven't had enough training to build the knowledge and comprehension. Through to applying that knowledge and then through to being confident about what you're doing. Gaps all over the place, Megan.
Megan Walker: Absolutely. And so the risks then of someone, you know, let's say it could be a physio, could be
Dr. Lisa Burke: mm-hmm.
Megan Walker: Any type of professional, couldn't it, not just a psychologist, could be someone podiatrist, if they aren't handling the grief of that client or patient in an effective way. What are some of the risks that can, can take place?
Dr. Lisa Burke: The biggest risk I think for the person who is grieving is that they walk away from a professional exchange feeling.
Unseen or even unsupported. So there is a risk here that they withdraw back into themselves and think, gosh, my stuff's so sad, bad, awful, that not even a professional can support me or acknowledge me. Which is a terrible human experience, isn't it, to, to feel that way. But what we've actually got is a well-meaning professional who gave it their best shot.
So we've ended up with two people in a human exchange feeling. Pretty average about each other, which is not what it could
Megan Walker: be like. Wow. I absolutely love your topic. It's got such huge scope and potential, and there's so many people whose lives can be improved by the work that you are doing. Yeah. And so the lessons that you've learned.
On the journey of taking this amazing knowledge that you've delivered in person, in clinic, and now putting that into the online space. Mm-hmm. What are some of the, um, strategies that you've already been, you know, delivering and what have been some of the results so far?
Dr. Lisa Burke: It's been such an interesting journey because I actually am not only a clinical psychologist in and in practice, but I've also been, up until last year, an academic, so I've been, I have a teaching degree.
I've been teaching at universities for a long time and teaching healthcare professionals, so I thought it would be reasonably easy, famous last words to go out and just create some online courses and put my stuff out to the world to help. Grieving people and help professionals. Mm-hmm. But actually what's ended up happening is I realized that when I was an educator, I had a whole team of people around me.
I had ed designers, I had technology people, I had marketers doing all of that. All I actually did was teach. So what I've had to do is restructure my whole approach to this, that actually I will need to be all of those things. Or I will need to have the people around me performing the, the support roles for that.
So I'm really, I've sort of had to restructure over the last couple of years my entire approach to this because I was only thinking about the actual end point, which was the course of the teaching. So it's been a, a Okay, stop. I need to pivot right back to the start. Where I need to restructure the approach that I'm using here and get good people around me.
So I guess that would be one of my, my key tips is get good people around you or be willing to have the time, the investment, the energy to upskill yourself in things like educational design and marketing. Accountancy and web design and there are many, many other hats that you have to wear as a course creator.
It's, it's a real learning curve. Yeah.
Megan Walker: So what would you say, and I get this all the time, to, you know, people who's, you know, they're very experienced, they're very knowledgeable. I'm gonna pull together the course, and once I've got the course, it's gonna sell and, yeah. I'm gonna make money while I sleep.
And what do you say to that?
Dr. Lisa Burke: I say that goal will come to fruition if you put the right building blocks into place, but it's not six months. I, I see other. Course creation mentors out there in the marketplace and they're saying, get your course up and running and make your passive income in six months.
It, I don't think that's even feasible, to be honest. No, I think you need to invest in those building blocks. Yeah. Which means working with a trusted person like yourself who has, who has been in this game a very long time and knows what this is about. You can do it, but it will probably take longer and there will probably be more U-turns.
Before you start seeing some actual income.
Megan Walker: Yeah, agreed. And it, it's very much like renovating a house, isn't it? Like you think Oh yes. Oh, that's gonna be easy. I'll just do the, oh, hang on. Wait a minute. There's this bit. Now there's this bit. Now there's, yes. And it's all possible. Yes. But how long does it take to build a practice?
Well, it's not absolutely that dissimilar to, okay, here's a, now a new product. Yes. Gotta find the market. Gotta build the market. Gotta yes.
Dr. Lisa Burke: This not long ago. I was thinking about, uh, I've not never worked in the chefing industry. I'm uh, home cook at best. But I was thinking, what is it like for a chef who creates a new menu item and then puts that on the menu and puts it out to the market?
If people buy it, you've got something great. And if they don't. You try again, start again, and you talk about what didn't work and you put a new meal together and hope that people enjoy that one. But I guess it's, uh, you know, I, I'm guessing about my instincts about putting a, a menu item together, but I guess it's the saying that.
At some point you need to stop planning and thinking and, uh, you know, you've gotta actually execute. You've got to get a product up Yeah. And put it out to market. And then you'll start to u-turn Yes. And realize you've made a, a mistake there, or you could have done this differently. You've got to get something out to market.
So I guess that's the mindset that I would highlight for people. I, I do endorse in my personal and professional life. The good enough. Model. Yes. That you, your product will not be perfect, but it will certainly be good enough. Yeah. So, you know, don't sweat over the smallest of things. Make your choice today about whatever it is, whether you want a blue logo or a pink logo.
Choose your, your logo and move on, because otherwise. I've found there are so many steps involved here that you will get unstuck very quickly. Yes. If you are sweating on decisions because all of them are important.
Megan Walker: Yes.
Dr. Lisa Burke: So if you spend a month on something that you had planned to spend a day on. Then you're a month behind, so keep moving.
Except that it will be good enough. Your logo looks lovely. Let's keep going. Yeah. Yes. So, such good
Megan Walker: advice and so many of those things don't matter as well. Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, absolutely. The perfectionism is a real challenge in this field. Like, I've gotta be, have my hair done and my makeup done, and a perfect outfit and get the video studio and my voice has to sound, no, none of that is necessary.
It just has to be neat and tidy 'cause the person wants you. They're not wanting a news reader. Yes. They want the warmth and the vulnerability and the natural, and you're so right about putting something in the market because
Dr. Lisa Burke: Yeah.
Megan Walker: The biggest success factor is feedback from the audience.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Yes.
Megan Walker: Like the success driver, I should say.
And that's what unlocks, what do people want? How do they want it? What will they buy? What will serve them? And you won't know that until you put something out and ask the question. Absolutely. And, and be brave to go, okay, I am gonna get that feedback and be brave to go, uh, now I'm gonna make those changes and I'm gonna go again.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Mm. And
Megan Walker: so what would, what does success look like? It is, that's that feedback loop of improvement. Feedback improvement, yeah. Uh, not working in this space. Well, that's pretty simple. It's like, stop the feedback and stop the improvement. And there's your
Dr. Lisa Burke: ticket if you wanna go that way. That's good. There's certainly perfectionism in our industries.
There's no doubt about it. But also there is a, a passion that fuels a lot of this. Yes. There. So I'm passionate too, and I invest a lot developing my mini course. But unless I get it out there, I don't know whether, I mean, things change in the industry too. Yes. So what people wanted from me when I was doing market research 18 months ago has already shifted.
So let go of that perfectionism too, that I've gotta get this course perfect because it'll be here for 55 years. It, it might be a, a short term product for you, and that's okay. Yeah. Keep it moving and keep with your market because their needs are changing based on societal needs. So, so try not to think about your products as you know, I must invest all my passion into this one product because they're all dynamic.
Megan Walker: Yes.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Yet it's not one and done.
Megan Walker: Absolutely, absolutely. Unlike having one child, um, you said it begar not be. What are you excited about that you're working on next?
Dr. Lisa Burke: So now that I have had, uh, a couple of big things going on in the last month, I've had a podcast launch, which is amazing. So again, a lot of effort, a lot of acceptance of that's good enough, let's get that out and see how the world reacts to that.
I've also had a webinar, um, which had hundreds of people. I was so excited for that. So we've had that, and I'm now moving into the, the process of warming up all of my leads for a new product that's coming in the next couple of months. So working with. The market that I knew so well 18 months ago when I was starting some of these, this mini course development, and through to some lead magnets, et cetera.
Some of that has already shifted. So I'm excitedly moving along with my market to see what's, what's going on out there. What is it that people are currently feeling challenged by. And great. I'm loving it. Let's go with the next round. Let's see where, where this takes us from here. That's so just starting to sort of, um, build that entire persona.
Now that I've actually left my academic job, which is a big deal after 30 years. Yeah. I'm now an, an independent educator running my own company, so I'm needing to, to sort of step into that space and build that, that sort of reputation. It, it is the reality that you're doing multiple things at once. As a course creator, yes, you are wearing a lot of hats at once and I have found it's best to, you know, narrow into a couple.
So at the moment, my focus is further course development based on market feedback from my first round of courses and, and lead magnets, as well as continuing to build my profile. Yeah,
Megan Walker: fantastic. Yes, exactly. And then once you've got those courses and you've got the feedback on them, then you can lean more into them.
Yeah, introducing yourself to new people and getting known, and then the whole system starts to really. Work more cyclical. That's, yeah. That's more when it can be earning when you're sleeping. Not straight out the gate, I think. I'm not
Dr. Lisa Burke: sure sure about this earning when you're sleeping. I'm not sure. Yeah.
No. That might different. Should, but certainly you could, you can invest your passion by putting it out to the world and know that you're making a difference. Yeah. That's what really drives me. If, if people are learning one thing from me, yes. In a webinar or a mini course or a lead magnet, and then they go out there and support a grieving person differently, then I'm thrilled with that.
Megan Walker: That's fantastic. I was gonna ask you about your vision. You just nailed it beautifully. And so, um, wrapping again, you know, wrapping up, we've gotta put all of your contacts and links below where everyone's watching this, all listening to this. So you can go and follow Lisa, have a look at what she's.
Offering in this, uh, amazing space of, of grief education for clinicians and practitioners. And what would be your encouragement to your peers who were thinking about packaging up their wisdom into an online course?
Dr. Lisa Burke: Find the right people that fit your vision, find the right people. I think this, for me at least, I couldn't have done this on my own.
I did for the first little while managing my academic job, my clinician job thought I could manage all of that, but actually I was just stalling and stalling for a month or two at a time. Yeah. Once you start identifying your people for you, for me, Megan, you are the person that really. Helped me pull all this together.
The documents, the support videos, the courses you offer, the the times we get together as a group or one-on-one. All of that helps you see that you will get to your vision. It just requires this consistency. Effort, but you must try to find your people. I tried another couple of sort of course creation mentors.
They didn't quite work for me in culture or, or their approach. Mm-hmm. But you, I feel like you offer people a breadth of knowledge and even, you know, some of those very practical tools that you offer. I felt like I was wedded for about a year to some of your checklists. Uh, and one of them was just so comprehensive things I hadn't even thought about.
Your contact in the insurance world helped me. Oh, yes. A great deal. Yes, green hat. She helped me so much. You know, things I hadn't given enough attention to. You've got the breadth of knowledge to work with people on all of the building blocks at once, right through from, you know, your company set up and your insurance and all those things, right through to your systems.
Underneath all of this shiny product, you can manage everything through to your marketing and everything. So for me, you are the right match, but. You know, you've got to find some people around you. Yeah. I don't think you can do this on your own. No, I, I
Megan Walker: totally agree with you. I had a couple of different coaches that I worked with, and then the one I'm with, I've had for three years and Yeah.
Yeah. You, if I find, if you go alone, you, there's too much second guessing and going around in circles and then you just deprioritize it. Yeah. 'cause it's. In the early stages, it's not a guarantee. Yeah. So it's very easy to go, oh, I'll keep doing the work and work the way I was always working. Yes. It takes a lot of courage and sacrifice.
Yeah. To go, well, I'm gonna reduce my income a little bit, or I'm gonna reduce my free time. Yes. To spend on something that has no guarantee.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Yeah.
Megan Walker: But you are already on that journey and you are already sensing, you are getting the wins, you are getting the endorsements.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Mm.
Megan Walker: And so you are, I, I hope that you can see it all starting to pay off and that's, that trajectory will only continue.
Yes. So you're in a really exciting place to have people just love what you're doing and find you Yes. And work with you and you be their person. You are their who.
Dr. Lisa Burke: It's a privilege to work in the field of grief and loss. It is a privilege to be invited into people's worlds when they're in such significant pain.
Yeah. And so is this work. It's a privilege to then support others to do the work as well. So it's a great day for me when I get to come. Oh,
Megan Walker: there we're just having a little internet problem. But Lisa, thank you so much for your time. I know you've got a dash to an appointment. So grateful for the work that you are doing.
It's so important. We really appreciate you. And please everyone have a look at Lisa's, uh, social media links below and her website. Yep, yep. And follow along with, uh, the wonderful work that she's doing. Thanks so much, Lisa. We better let you go, and we just love talking to you and love working with you.
And thanks for the great work you do for everyone.
Dr. Lisa Burke: Thank you everybody. Have a wonderful day.
