Ep 27 - Alvaro Berrios
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Megan Walker: I'm Megan Walker here and welcome to Healthcare Online. Today our very special guest is Alvaro Alvaro. Hi Alvaro. How are you?
Alvaro Berrios: I'm doing great, Megan. I'm excited to be here.
Megan Walker: Fantastic. And Alvar has an amazing agency that helps people run their Facebook and Instagram advertising and I'm sure a lot more Alvaro.
Do you wanna just kick us off, um, and tell us a little bit more about what you guys do and then we are gonna get into a conversation about. Uh, course creators and, you know, partnering up with meta and what that looks like. So yeah, tell us what it is that you guys do.
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah, so we primarily run, uh, meta ads.
Um, although we do also run, uh, Google ads and YouTube ads for our clients. But, you know, if I were to give a percentage, you know, I would say, you know, 80% of what we do, um, is around meta ads, and the other 20% consists of, um, Google ads and YouTube ads combined. Um, and we work with online entrepreneurs selling, you know, digital products and services.
Um, so we're not working with any kind of like local brick and mortar types of businesses. Um, you know, the online realm is, uh, definitely our, our bread and butter specialty.
Megan Walker: Fantastic. Thank you. I knew there'd be something else that you're doing. Thanks for mentioning the YouTube ads as well. And so people get started with creating, uh, an online course.
You know, typically someone like me will coach them into, you know, create it and then test it with your audience. And when you get good feedback, then launch it with your organic audience and soon and you know, and they have good results. But then sooner or later we realize that, hang on, the minute they've used up that audience, the sales have, you know, come outta their existing email list.
And then we say, okay, now start growing your list. Well, that can be pretty slow. So tell us about the role of. Facebook ads, and when is a good time for a course creator to start investing in? We should, I should say, paid meta ads, shouldn't I? And then that covers us for Facebook and Instagram. When, what's a good time when, yeah.
Yeah. People should start seeing, by the way, I
Alvaro Berrios: still make that slip myself all the time. I'll say Facebook ads, and then people will go, what about Instagram? I'm like, well, I'm, it's the same thing. Like I'm, I'm lump it all together, but yeah, like meta ads and, and the whole family of platforms. Um, but, but yeah, so, you know.
For, there's one really obvious case of when a course creators should start. Um, and then, oh, another one that's a little bit less obvious. Um, the obvious case one, and hopefully, you know, this is the one that applies to, um, most people in most cases. Um, but it's when you create your course and you have been able to, um, get some proof of concept, meaning some people from your organic audience have bought your course, uh, because.
If no one buys your course organically from people who already know, like, and trust you, uh, I promise you that a stranger that has no idea who you are, that that stranger will not buy, um, your course from you. Um, so that's the, that's the, the easy way, uh, of knowing it. Um, however, I understand that not everyone, you know, when they're starting off with their course, they may not have a built-in organic, um, audience.
So then at that point you actually do have to start running ads, um, really soon, but in a different way, right? So in the other, in the other example I just gave, when you have a built-in organic audience, uh, and you got some sales, um, like that, you know, you can start running ads. Directly promoting your course, you know, pretty much right after that.
Whereas if you're in the other bucket, you need to get started with Facebook ads sooner, but you don't want to promote your course right away. All you're doing at the very beginning is building your email list, um, that way you have a list. To people to promote the course too, um, organically at some point, right?
So let's just say it's maybe three, four or five months down the road and stuff like that. Um, and then you kind of do the same process, right? So you, you do those list building ads, you run something to a lead magnet, and then you release your course, um, to your email list. Uh, hopefully you get a few, uh, buyers in there.
And then if you do. Then you can start running ads, um, for directly promoting your course. So those are the kind of the two scenarios, um, that people will typically experience, uh, in the course creation realm.
Megan Walker: Yeah, I love that. Now I've got a thought, I don't know how to make it into a question. So I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you something that I'm seeing a lot of where people will say, get their mini course.
They'll launch it to their existing email list, they make some sales, they'll do it again. And then they go, okay, the concept's proven. Now I'm gonna put it into Evergreen and run ads to it. But then what they can often find is the ad people are cold. So what worked for the warm isn't working for the cold.
So we need a different strategy to warm those people up. Do you wanna just share your thoughts with me on that kind of light bulb moment that maybe I've just had?
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, it's a good thing that you pointed that out because I did say earlier, right? If, if no one buys your course organically, no one's gonna buy it from an ad.
Uh, but that being said, even if people do buy your course organically, that's not a guarantee that people are gonna buy it from an ad either, right? Uh, because at the end of the day, um, that's an organic audience that already knows you, likes you, and trusts you. Whereas with an ad, you're getting in front of complete strangers who have no idea who you are, what you do, what you represent, how you can help them, so on and so forth.
And you have to remember, no one goes on social media to shop. Right. You know, if I need a pair of shoes, I don't open up my Instagram app or anything like that. Um, right. I go to Amazon or drive to a store or whatever it might be. Um, and so we're interrupting people. People are going on there to. See what their friends are posting, this, that, and the other.
It's a social media platform, which is easy, easy to forget sometimes. Um, and so, uh, so yeah, so it's just a very different, um, scenario. So oftentimes what you need to do, uh, particularly with the mini course example that you gave, you need to provide a lot more context. Whereas with your organic. Um, you know, you may have been able to be like very simple and straightforward with your promotions.
Like, Hey, I've got this mini course, uh, I built over people just like you. I really hope you like it. Um, you know, here's the link to the sales page. Check it out. Let me know what you think. Right? You can be very, very simple and straightforward like that and, and get some results with your organic audience.
Um, you're not going to get that result with a cold, with cold audience just saying, Hey, I made this course for you. Like, please check it out. You know, lemme know what you think. Um, you have to provide a lot of context 'cause they are cold people. So, um, your ad copy. And your sales page, um, it has to be longer in terms of the content that they're providing compared to your organic, uh, promotion.
Um, and, you know, obviously if we were to go into like a, a deep dive into ad copy, we'll be here for the next three hours. Yeah. Um, the, the, the fastest and most simple way I can. Explaining is that, um, you need to, um, make sure that they understand that you understand them, right, that you empathize with them, that you've walked in their shoes before, uh, and that you have solved the very problem, um, that they are.
Seeking to solve themselves because you experienced the same problem right? At some point in your life. Um, and so if you're able to do that, um, very eloquently, and what, and the reason I'm kind of emphasizing eloquently that is that I really hate, um, kind of spammy style ad copy, where it's like attention, you know, doctors, you know, attention medical professionals, right?
It's like, okay, no, no one like talks like that in, in the real world.
Megan Walker: No, no,
Alvaro Berrios: no. Be, it's a social media platform. Be social, be human. Um, empathize and you know, with those efforts, you'll hopefully get some traction with your mini course when it comes to ads.
Megan Walker: Yeah. So good. Thank you for explaining that.
Because it's, it, we shouldn't assume that just because we can automate doesn't mean that we've skipped over the natural relationship development. Developing process. So yeah. Thank you for explaining, expanding on that a little bit further. And so for a new course creator who, you know, they're ready to step in and, um, get started with ads, do you suggest they have a go at DIY or outsource?
Controversial question for a finance manager. Yeah. Uh,
Alvaro Berrios: so, so in 99% of scenarios, I do recommend having a go of the DIY route. Um, there's, there's a couple reasons for that. First and foremost, um, it's gonna save you money. Uh, paying an agency such as myself, and obviously at the very beginning of your course creation journey, you're not gonna have a whole lot of cash flow coming in.
So you're paying for an agency and you're paying for the ads. And so it can get very expensive very quickly. Um, whereas if you go to the DIY course, you skip the agency fee and all you're doing is paying for, um, the ads themselves. Uh, but then the other reason that I recommend, uh, you know, going the D-I-D-I-Y route at first, and it's something that most people don't think about at the beginning, is that.
Eventually, it probably does make sense for everyone to outsource at some point, right? Um, I, I don't know anyone who's, you know, you, that is, you know, doing let's just say like a million dollars in revenue and they're still running their own ads, right? Like at that point you're like, okay, no, yeah, I need, I need to outsource.
Um, so, so eventually, right, everyone who reaches a certain level, they're going to outsource. But if you did want the DIR. DIY route, um, you're gonna give yourself a foundation that is gonna help you communicate whoever your ads manager is at the future. Um, and you know, I actually made this mistake like early on in my agency where I would work with people that had never run their own ads.
And it was like we were speaking foreign languages to one another. Like we, we just couldn't, you know, communicate and strategize properly. 'cause they had no idea what I was saying. You know, I was throwing out terms like CPM and CTR and they're like, wait, what? Um, and so, you know, it gives you that foundation to be able to have a constructive relationship with your, um, ad manager.
And then on top of that it will help you, um, decipher who are the good ad ad managers versus the bad ad managers, uh, in the agency world. It's just the reality that. I don't know what the percentage is, but at least 80% of agencies and ad managers are very lousy. And I would even go as far as, uh, to call 'em scammers.
Um, but you know, if you're, if you're not aware of like the ins and outs of meta ads, you're not gonna be able to spot that, right. Um, I've, I've spoken to a lot of people who've wasted a ton of money. I'm talking about tens of thousands of dollars in an agency that got them zero results. Uh, but they promised, you know, the, the, the moon, um, you know, to them.
And so they, they unfortunately fell for that. So, um, for those reasons, I do highly recommend going the DIY route. Um, you know, 98% of the time for that 1%. Um, you know, there are some people that. They truly despise running, uh, meta ads. No matter, no matter what you do or what you say, or how much training, um, it's, it literally causes them stress and, and, and anxiety going into ads, managers, seeing the data, all kind of stuff.
Um, so for those people in the 1%, you know, I will say. Okay. You, you kind of don't have a choice. You do have to outsource, but, um, exhaust all options before, before doing that. Uh, you know, 'cause hopefully, you know, you can learn a little something along the way when it comes to med ads.
Megan Walker: That's such good advice.
I really like that. And they don't need to know like, every single moving part of it. 'cause I find now it's just changing so much that, you know, it's really hard to keep up with all of those changes. But yes, absolutely. Knowing how to communicate with your agency, knowing what they're doing for you.
Totally get that. That's such good advice. And so it, I mean, this might be a bit too hard to answer, but is there a particular starting point? Do you start generally with like national or you start with lead gen ads or you start with promoting your lead magnet? Is there tends to be a starting point that's more common for course creators?
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah, I would say any kind of, you know, lead gen, lead magnet type of ad, it tends to be a little bit more common for a couple of different reasons. Um, one. It helps you get your feet wet with conversion ads. Uh, you know when once, once you're established and you're rocking and rolling and things are going well, I mean, 90% of the ads you're going to run on, uh, meta are gonna be some type of conversion ad either for leads or sales.
There's, there's lots of other objectives, traffic engagements, um, video views, all that kinda stuff. They have their time in place. For sure. But in terms of the objectives that are going to make you money over the long run, it's the conversion a, uh, campaigns, right? So again, that's gonna be 80, maybe even 90% of your ad spend over the, over the lifetime of your, um, advertising career for your business.
Um, and so that's one benefit right there. The other benefit too, of using some sort of lead gen, um, lead magnet ad. Is that it will allow you to test audiences for whatever your bigger promotion is, right? So let's just say you have a course that you eventually kind of wanna push people to, but you're not sure which audience will resonate the most.
As most people are probably aware. Listening to this, you know, there's a million, billion different options for targeting, um, on uh, on meta. Uh, and so by running some test campaigns to these different audiences, you can see how they respond in terms of the cost per lead for the lead magnet that you're running.
And obviously the ones that are super expensive, you can kind of ignore those. Uh, the ones that have a very low cost per lead, they clearly resonate with something that you're saying, um, either in the ad copy or in the lead magnet itself. And then that gives you a. Jump, jumpstart, uh, in terms of, okay, now I'm gonna pro my, promote my course.
Uh, audiences, you know, A, B, and C were lousy, but audiences X, Y, and Z worked great. So I'm gonna focus on X, Y, and Z.
Megan Walker: Yeah. Fantastic. So good. Okay, now? Mm-hmm. What ads are. What type of ads are working at the moment? Now, this will be redundant as soon as we've recorded this probably. Please tell me that the pointing ads and the dancing ads, I don't want really wanna see my medical professionals doing that, but is there a type of format that's getting a bit more traction at the moment in that expert thought leader space?
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah. And, and you did say something that is important to note before, before I get into the full answer, which is, you know, you, you, you jokingly said, um, you know, by the time, uh, tomorrow it's gonna be outdated information or however you phrased it. Um, you know, a little bit of an exaggeration, but also a lot of truth into that as well in, in that, um, you know, these things change.
Um, you know, uh, I really doubt that what's working today is gonna work, you know, certainly a year from now. Um, you know, but it might even change sooner than that, you know, six months from now, three months from now. Uh, but all that being said, let's, let's put that aside. Um, uh, I would say the two things I'm seeing work right now are carousel ads.
Mm-hmm. You know, carousels, they're easily the most underutilized, um, creative asset type. And, you know, for me, when I, when I say creative asset types, I, I really, there, I, I put three in that category. Technically there's more options out there, but those options are so. Um, niche in terms of like when you could use them that I, I don't even include them in when I'm doing any kind of training.
So the three major asset types are videographic and carousels. And like I said, of those three carousels are the most underutilized and they make it for a really great way for someone to engage with your ad. 'cause obviously they have to scroll and thumb across to able to consume everything. Um, so there they have to be a little bit more active in the consumption of the ad.
Whereas with both images and videos, they're passive, right? They just have to, you know, sit there and, and, and, and look at it basically. So, um, it keeps them more engaged, which I think is a good thing. And then when it comes to videos, um. You know, one thing that is just always an ongoing issue, um, is, you know, getting people's attention, that's always a challenge.
Um, and so, you know, back in the day you could just record like a simple talking head video. You just left up your phone and you're talking to it, and you can see good results that way. Um, but yeah, again, it's difficult to capture people's attention now. Uh, and so what we have been success with is that if someone records.
A video, like let's say it's like three to four separate, 15 second clips, and then they're all edited together to be one single video. And then each of the clips, it's like in a different part of your house, your front yard, your backyard, right? You don't have to do anything crazy, but it's just like a change of scenery that way as the as, as the video goes on.
Um, there's changes in scenery and so it's very engaging, very eye catching. Um, and so we've been seeing a lot of success with those types of videos. It doesn't, it sounds like you need some fancy editing software and all that kinda stuff to do that, but I can promise you, um, it's easily done inside of Canva.
Um, so no, no Photoshop needed.
Megan Walker: Yeah. Wow. I was just gonna ask you that. Do I need to, you know, do we all need to get videographers showing up at our
Alvaro Berrios: offices? No, no, no. Just your phone. Uh, a Canva Pro account and, uh, you'll be off to the races.
Megan Walker: Off to go. Fantastic. Um, what else did I wanna ask you? So that, thank you for explaining that.
Oh, I know, I was thinking when you were talking, what's your thoughts on AI generated images?
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah, those are interesting. So when AI generated images first came out, they worked like wildfire. Like they, they were honestly just a Chico. And I was like, this is amazing. I was just like, just like throwing all the AI generated images.
Uh, I could at the algorithm. Uh, but then it, it almost seemed like there was like. A backlash to it. Like we would see in the comments like, oh, you're using AI that's so lame, like this, that, and the other. I'm like, okay. I don't know if it's why, why that matters, whether it's made by AI or, um, you know, a Canva template.
You know, it's, it's all the same thing basically. Um, and so, you know, right now. We are still using some AI generated images. However, they have to be really, really realistic looking, right? So the a the previous AI images that, you know, could be like vector style and, and it was very clearly AI generated. Um, those are not working anymore.
So they have to be like ultra, ultra lifelike, um, style of AI generated images. Um, so, so yeah. So we are, but we have to like really kind of train. We have to go through a couple different iterations when we're going with AI because we'll say what we want and then like the first iteration is very obvious as it's AI generators.
We're like, no, no, no. Make it lifelike. And then it gives us another one, even more lifelike. We have to like repeat the same thing like over and over again until again, it actually does look very much lifelike. And then we can use that.
Megan Walker: Oh, that's so good. And let's, um, as we start to wrap up, I just wanna say like I, to everyone listening, Alvaro and his team manage all of my ads.
I got to that fortunate point. And size of the business where I'm gonna stick to what I'm good at. Um, but it blows me away. Pardon me. Sorry, Albert.
Alvaro Berrios: No worries.
Megan Walker: The complexity of when you're getting into a big launch and then there's the ads leading in, there's the reminder ads, and then there's the follow up.
Definitely when you get to that stage, I wouldn't even attempt to manage that myself, but for people who were starting, and I was definitely there on that journey not too long ago to help them learn how to become DIY. You've got a, a little program, don't you? Do you wanna tell us about that and what's inside it so that, um, that can help people get started?
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah, so it's called the Facebook Ads Jumpstart. And, um, the, the re the reason I created this is because there's obviously a lot of Facebook ad courses out there, right? I'm certainly not denying that, but the vast majority of them, they are, you know, long courses. And I, I, by the way, I have one of these long courses as well, so I'm not, I'm not hating on anyone who has one of these long courses, but, you know, there's long courses that teach you everything about meta ads.
So like, it takes, it walks you from A to Z and you know, by the time you get to z. Or Zed, I think is about how you guys say it. Yeah. Um, uh, you are, you're gonna be like a ninja, right? You're gonna be like an absolute pro. And obviously for some people in certain situations, uh, that is appropriate, but for the vast majority of people, right?
You just said it yourself a, a minute ago, is that you're gonna focus. On what you do best. Uh, and so unless you consider, you know, uh, running meta ads, like the best thing that you can be doing, there's really no need for you to become just a true Facebook ads expert, right? You, you can, you can be dangerous, um, but you don't need to be, um, you know, some, some, you know, uh, expert that, uh, you know, people are looking to get knowledge from.
Uh, and so that's where this comes in, right? So it teaches you the. Minimum that you need to be able to run as yourself quickly and efficiently. Um, and so that's why I called the jumpstart. Um, you can get through the content and you know, if you're really, if you're, if you're really aggressive, you can just do it on one day, but probably two days usually is, uh, the amount of time it takes to, to get through it.
Um, you know, you'll be able to launch your first campaign very easily. You'll know what metrics to be looking at, how to set up your conversion events. Set how to set up all your tracking, your pixel and all that kind of stuff. Uh, and I keep it very simple, very minimalistic. Um, so not overwhelm anyone.
'cause obviously you're entrepreneurs, there's a lot of things going on in your, in your business that you're balancing. Uh, and so, um, this is a good course to not overwhelm yourself.
Megan Walker: That is so good. And you keep it updated too, don't you?
Alvaro Berrios: I do. Yes. Oh, and actually I will be updating it, um, very soon, once again because as Facebook, uh, or Meta always does, they had a major interface change just last month.
And so I'm like, oh, great. I gotta go back and rerecord Yeah, my course again. Yeah.
Megan Walker: Oh, Elva is so good. So everyone, I'll put a link down the below where you can go and check out the Jumpstart program and do keep Elva in mind for once you get to that point where you're ready to outsource, um, highly recommend you and your team.
El Roads made a massive difference too. Taking that stress of big launches as well. Okay. So anything else, Al Alfred, that you wanted to mention or that I should have asked you before we wrap up? What else is important to know about Facebook ads and,
Alvaro Berrios: yeah, I, I, I actually would say, and because, and this, this is very important, so, so, uh, thank you for giving the opportunity to throw one more thing in there.
Yeah. But it's, when it comes to budget, uh, this, this is something that a lot of people struggle with and they make very big mistakes on, and so. When I say, when you're first getting started with Facebook ads or meta ads, um, there's no formula for you to follow, to create your budget, right? Because I in the future, right?
You can create a budget based off of your results. Like, Hey, if I spend this amount of money on ads, I get this amount on revenue. Therefore, if I want to hit this number on revenue, I have to spend this much on ads, right? In the future, you can get to that point, and that's how you do create your, uh, budgets.
But obviously at the very beginning. You don't have that luxury. So what do you do? A lot of people fall into the trap that, um, they have to spend a lot of money, uh, because it's a numbers game and you have to give the algorithm a bunch of data, this, that and the other. All of that is true. Yes, it is a numbers game.
Yes, the algorithm does need data. Um, however. Um, I, I've just seen too many people, um, kind of dig themselves in a hole. Well, you know, where they give themselves a $10,000 budget and they get $0 back, and then they're just very dismayed and stuff like that. Um, so I, you know, I don't want anyone to put themselves in that type of situation.
So what I always say in this, in when you're first getting started is that. Spend as much as you're willing to spend with the expectation that you're going to get $0 back. Now, I know that sounds a little bit weird 'cause no one wants to get $0 back, but it is the right way to think about it because getting $0 back is certainly a possibility, right?
There's no guarantees in advertising even when you've done some, um, proof of concept with your organic audience, right? We already spoke about this. You mill, you may still get zero sales. So knowing that that is a possibility. You know, what is that number that if you were to spend that much and get $0 back, w would you lose, you know, what would make you lose sleep at night?
Right? So let's go with an extreme example. I, I'm assuming 99, if not a hundred percent of the people listening to this, if they spend $20,000 on ads and get $0 back. They're gonna lose sleep at night, right? Okay. So you have to be spending less than 20 K, 10 k still same thing. Then go beneath 10 K. Is it 5K?
Is it 4K? Is it three K? You know, get to that number where, you know, no one's gonna be happy about losing money, obviously. Uh, but like, what can you stomach? And so that's. The number that you need to be working with at the beginning. That way you're not, you know, you know, getting yourself in a situation you need to take it, a loan or anything like that, God forbid.
Um, so be very, very careful when it comes to the budget. Yes, the algorithm needs data. Yes, it is a numbers game, but the most important thing is to be safe with your money.
Megan Walker: Yeah. Such good advice. I remember you saying that to me and it took me so long to put my ad spend up. It's just that fear of, and then you go 5,000, you're like, oh, yeah.
And, and even just, you know, the last couple of days, okay, now we are like three times that. And I'm like, okay. Yep. And I no longer, I no longer think about losing it because I know when I spend that now, the numbers will come in and it'll, it'll turn six times. So until you have those numbers, that's such good advice though that um, yeah, you can actually, you're not just gambling, it's not red or black.
It's actually like some evidence behind it. Oh, so good talking to Alre. Thank you for the update and um, it's always just great to hear like when to use ads, what role, how to think about it. You know, it is all part of the mix. Like there is still the organic, there is still the paid, um, you know, and it's all about getting more people in front of you so that you can.
Let them about your program. So thank you so much Al. We'll put the links below and really appreciate you talking to us.
Alvaro Berrios: Yeah, it was an absolute pleasure. Thanks for having me.
