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"Supervision Training With Natalie Jack"

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Megan Walker: Hello, and welcome to Market Savvy Conversations. My name is Megan Walker, and our very special guest is Natalie Jack, who delivers supervision training for allied health professionals. Hi Natalie, how are you?

Natalie Jack: Hi, Megan. I'm well, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Megan Walker: I'm looking forward to this conversation because you have made some incredible leaps forward in your business and your practice and what you deliver. I think everyone listening will be really interested to hear how you've moved from the traditional world of allied health now into delivering your amazing services. Do you want to kick off by telling us a bit about you and your background?

Natalie Jack: Yes, absolutely happy to do that. Well, my background is in creative therapy, specifically music therapy. I started my career as a music therapist many, many years ago. And over my career, I've worked in various places, and mental health really has been my main area, and did some study and mental health. And always I guess, supervision has been something in the background for me that has been important. And through my career, I progressed to doing study and having lots of experience in supervision. And now, that's the main thing that I do, is offer supervision to individuals and groups and also offer supervision training. That's a little bit about the journey to where I am now.

Megan Walker: Fantastic, the journey.

Natalie Jack: Yeah.

Megan Walker: And how the long has it taken you from ... When did you come up with the idea of, "Hey, this is what I want to move towards."

And go a little bit deeper into the steps that you took to make that change into now, your new offering.

Natalie Jack: Into the supervision training specifically? Yeah, okay. Look, it did take me a while I think, from the initial thought years ago, probably ... Oh, I don't know. The pandemic has put a two year gap in everything but I reckon probably five years ago, I had the idea that, "I might have something to offer here."

And I've done some good trainings with other trainers and I'd love to be able to consolidate it and offer something specifically for allied health, but also for other health professionals, a general offering. It took me quite some time. And what I did is I got permission from an expert that I had trained with, to incorporate some of their material, and that was provided. And then I had a bit of a hiatus because the pandemic happened and my focus was on different things. And part of that thought process for me too, is a little bit of that imposter syndrome, worried about, "Do I have something to offer? Are people going to want this?"

And the other important thing obviously, is are people going to want to pay me for it? I had all those humps to get over myself, my own thoughts. And eventually I just thought, "Okay, I've got to do it. If I don't do it, I'll be kicking myself forever."

And so I went ahead and I did it. And you might remember Megan, that I've done things a little bit around the opposite way to what you teach. But for me, it seemed to be the best way to do it.

Megan Walker: Yeah, absolutely. I must have met you at about that time, where you were having challenges with those self doubts.

Natalie Jack: Yes.

Megan Walker: And I remember I'd heard your name everywhere and everyone raving about how amazing you are.

Natalie Jack: Oh, my gosh.

Megan Walker: And then I remember thinking ... And you might have been ... You're just going, "Oh, I wonder if ... I wonder if ... "

And that conversation of do it, do it, just get into it. And you have put so much in place in what probably feels like a long time but you're doing so well. Tell us what it is that you offer now, and what are you working on at the moment?

Natalie Jack: Okay. What I offer now, is a generalised five day comprehensive supervisor training course.

Megan Walker: I see.

Natalie Jack: Yeah, five days online at this stage but of course, now that restrictions are easing a bit, I can do in person as well, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, it's a live five day training for supervision. It covers basic practices and theories and it covers advanced techniques. It also covers introduction to ethics and practice and group supervision as well. That's what I'm offering.

Megan Walker: Brilliant.

Natalie Jack: Yeah. I've completed one course of that and I'm in the middle of another one at the moment. And I've had some lovely feedback, which is great. That's what I'm offering at the moment. What I would like to do, what I'm working on for the next phase, is really exposing as many allied and other health professionals as possible to this opportunity, because I feel like there's a gap there for allied health especially and other health, to do really good allied health training, basic training. No, sorry, supervision training, basic supervision for allied health. Yeah.

Megan Walker: And tell me more about that. What are the benefits that they get out of your five day course? But then more broadly, what are the bigger benefits you can get out of being a supervisor?

Natalie Jack: Okay. The story is in a lot of professions in the allied health and other health professions, is a lot of us just go and end up in a supervisory role without getting any training. What we rely on is the experience from our own previous supervisors as a student or as a professional, and we don't necessarily get the training to know what we're doing. And I was in this position 20 years ago, and being asked to be a student supervisor. One of the benefits is actually grounding your knowledge and getting that, "Oh yeah, I do do those things but now I can put it in a structure. I can actually see where I can put all the things together that I've already been working on."

Then there's others that think they might like to supervise in the future but don't have skills and would be wondering, "How do I get those basic skills? Where do I start?"

That's the gap I think, it's filling in the professions. Yeah.

Megan Walker: Yeah. And when you ran your five day, what were the two or three standout moments for you where you went, "I'm really nailing this. They're loving this."

This is the bit that they've all leaned into and gone, "Thank you, Natalie."

What were some of those?

Natalie Jack: Oh, there were a couple of those, I'll have to think. Probably the structure that I provided. The steps to take, the way to actually hold and structure the supervision session, some of the ... Yeah, some of the real concrete techniques to structure, it was one of the biggest things. Another one of them was probably the learning cycles, so how we learn in supervision because supervision is talked about like a learning partnership. I teach that learning cycle and different things that happen at each stage. It was really a light bulb moment for a few of the students in that time. And I guess, the other thing is the ethics, the discussion of ethics was really important for people because a lot of the students were thinking of ethics as big deals, really big problems that are terrible. But through our discussions, they were like, "Oh, actually there's this ethical issue that's a tinier thing but I actually didn't realise that was an ethical issue."

It's getting people's radars in that place where they can have that ethical thinking in the background when they're working with people, so that they can identify and help their supervisees tackle some of those things. Yeah, there were a few moments where people were like, "Wow, this is going to really help me."

... which I was really pleased about.

Megan Walker: I love that. And there's nothing like formal training to really just nail your skills. And then the confidence I imagine as well, for your participants coming out of it. Even if they knew it, they've now got it all together in one place. But the confidence to go out and add this as a product service offering and go and market it and ...

Natalie Jack: And they can then do it with confidence. And yeah, for those that had been supervising, as I was saying, they really could consolidate and go, "Oh, I do that but not exactly in that way. And now, I know why I'm doing it and I can add these things together."

Really, yeah. A lot of the feedback I got that it really pulled everything together for them, even if they'd been supervising for years, and allowed them to be more confident and put those things in place. It was a nice feeling to have that. That's what I wanted.

Megan Walker: Yeah, yeah. I can tell that this is your vision. What's the bigger picture? What are you growing and building and what's it looking like?

Natalie Jack: Oh, my goodness. Well, the dream is to be able to offer supervision training to as many people as possible, so that as many clinicians as possible can get high quality supervision. I provide supervision individually but I also do this training because I want more supervisors to be trained. And the more supervisors who are trained and can provide high quality supervision, the more clinicians can get high quality supervision. They can be looked after in their professions and their roles. And then they can do better work for their clients. That's the goal, I want just as many professionals to be able to access really good quality training, which is what I hope I provide, and to get it out there. And I'd love to be invited by I don't know, organisations to come and deliver training for their organisation and to do that for people because really, I'm a little bit excited about supervision.

Megan Walker: I love it. And you're so confident, you're just glowing. In two short years, you've gone from, "I don't think I can do this."

... to you are doing it. How good is that?

Natalie Jack: Yeah. And I want to just have people know it's available so that they can have choices of being trained and becoming more confident supervisors.

Megan Walker: Fantastic. I call that period from idea to doing it, you've heard me say this, crossing the desert. I went through that for two, three years selling time by the hour, consulting, not dissimilar to how many health practices run, to now having courses and programs. What would you say to people who are considering moving from selling time to having a product, and what are some things you learnt crossing the desert?

Natalie Jack: Okay. Oh, that's such a good question. Excuse me. I would say obviously be confident and get someone on your side, like yourself or other clinicians, supporters who can help you be confident to start that first step into the desert, I guess. And I think doing it gradually is a really good idea. And like you teach, to get one course ready, really solid, a small thing to start with. That's what I would say, is what is your niche? What is the thing that you glow about? And get either a course or even a workshop or a document, a book, something like that and test the waters and get it out there because then you'll have that time to practice all the things you need to do on a small scale. And I dove into straight away the five day thing and like I said, that's big.

Megan Walker: I love it.

Natalie Jack: But I really ... If I had thought of it years ago or got the help years ago, maybe I would've done something small just to practice those things first. And then you've still got your practice and I still have my practice. I see lots of supervisees every week and I'm going to continue to do that because it's my passion. I love supporting supervisees but this is ... Yeah, I'm going to grow it I guess, as I go, and do more and more of the teaching, hopefully to be able to, as I said, expose the training to as many people as possible. But definitely, start.

Megan Walker: Start.

Natalie Jack: Just do it, do something. And I think as I was telling you earlier, I started with getting all my beautiful artwork done, which is not what you recommend. And I'm sorry to have to say that to your audience, but I know you're supportive anyway. But to me, it motivated me. I got some beautiful artwork work done and then I could launch and get all that stuff. And then I could fill in the gaps of the rest of it. And it was a little bit stressful, but the way it motivated me and got me to do it after so long, thinking about it was the right way for me. Given my time again and doing it a sensible way, I would start with something smaller. But start and do something you're passionate about that's small so you can practice the steps.

Megan Walker: Yeah.

Natalie Jack: That's the advice, I guess.

Megan Walker: I love that. And how important is it having a vision?

Natalie Jack: Ah, it's the number one thing. Because if you don't have a vision, it's like not having a destination. How do you know how you're going to get there? And I talk a lot about that in supervision with my supervises like, "Tell me what you really want. What is your ... If the world was magic, what would that be?"

Megan Walker: Yeah.

Natalie Jack: And if we don't know what the destination is, how do we plot how to get there? That vision that I've been thinking about for so long, when I really sat down to do it, it guided me because I just wanted people to learn supervision and be good supervisors. And it can be basic like that.

Megan Walker: Yeah. Yeah, I just love that. And I'm going to muck this saying up, but there was something I heard the other day about when you go into something, you're like, "I'm going to develop this product and I'm going to make lots of money."

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with money because that makes things possible, but if it's just off that one lens, it's a linear straight path and it feels like that doesn't have an end point that path, but when it has a circle attached to it of, "I'm growing and I'm giving and I'm growing and I'm giving."

There's a glow and a sustainability to it, isn't there? And I think that's really lovely. And in those tough times, for me, it's health equity. I talk to so many practice owners who were burning out and I think if you've got a product, then you can move from selling it. That for me, is, "Let's get help into everyone's hands. Telehealth makes it possible, yada, yada."

That's my man, on a tough day where you get some weird phone calls and a couple of strange things happen.

Natalie Jack: Yeah, yeah.

Megan Walker: This guy calls in, it's like, "Well, hang on. Why are we doing this? What's the bigger purpose?"

Tap back in. And it just fuels you, doesn't it?

Natalie Jack: Absolutely. And a lot of health professionals are not all about making money. In fact, most of the people I work with are not about making money and we have all these conversations about, "Oh, I don't want to charge."

Or whatever. And I know you've spoken to health professionals like that too. But the way I describe it is you've got to have money to do good things. You can charge what you're worth. Don't go out and rip people off, of course. I'm not suggesting that. And we talk about why do you do business? And for me, I explain it that 50% of the reason I do my business is so I can earn some money, so I'm not living in a cardboard box and I can help people. And the other 50% of why I run my business is because I'm passionate about good service. I'm passionate about good supervision, which leads to healthy clinicians. And that leads to then good outcomes for clients. And that's actually 50% of why I'm doing what I do. And it's okay to charge money because if I charge money, I can then go and do things like travel to different places to give subsidised things or whatever. And because I run my own business, I can make those choices.

Megan Walker: I love it.

Natalie Jack: Yeah. For me, I've been able to rationalise it. And I came from that too, I hated charging, "Oh, what do I charge?"

Megan Walker: Yeah.

Natalie Jack: It's still hard but I've got to remember that. It is for the greater good, I'm not just ripping people off for the sake of it. There really is a vision there for helping people, which is why a lot of us go into health in the first place.

Megan Walker: Oh, good. Tell us, how can people get in touch with you if they want to check out your programs?

Natalie Jack: Well, they can go to, my little site. And that one will link to my regular website. All my information is there, so, and people can find me.

Megan Walker: Fantastic. Any parting words of wisdom to the clinicians who are listening? What do you think, for people who are considering, "I want to change, I want to get another income stream like supervision or an online course."

What would you say to those people?

Natalie Jack: Oh, what I would say is get help and pay for help with the parts that you're not confident with. And for me, absolutely that's the marketing and I'm getting your help and I'm still learning. I'm always going to be learning. It's get help with what you need help with, whether it's graphic design or business or the money side of it. Whatever it happens to be, you can get the help and it'll be okay in the end. Pay a small amount of money to learn the skills and get what you need and go forward. And of course, just start. Reach out, start the process and ask others for help and you'll get there.

Megan Walker: I love it. Invest in yourself and back yourself.

Natalie Jack: Yes, that's right. So many people said that to me and here I am now saying it to other people. We all need someone to push us along, I think.

Megan Walker: Glowing. I love it, so good to see.

Natalie Jack: I love talking about this. Can you tell?

Megan Walker: Yeah, yeah. You're so lit up. I love it, it's great. Thank you so much, Natalie. I love this conversation. It's just motivating, we all have great ideas and there's ideas in us and we need to hear from people like you who put the hard work in and are doing it and it's working, and that's really encouraging for others. Thanks so much for your time.

Natalie Jack: If you're scared anyway, it's still okay to do it.

Megan Walker: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Feel the fear. All right, we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Nat.

Natalie Jack: Okay, bye.



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